3D effect / 3D game mode options in B650 menus

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sbav1
Official SamyGO Developer
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:20 am

3D effect / 3D game mode options in B650 menus

Post by sbav1 »

Hi,
there are some 3D related options in Samsung B650 menu entries, also complete with translations for different languages; these look pretty interesting:

Code: Select all

   3D Effect | Mode | Off | Mode1 | Mode2 | 2D Conversion
   Format | Checker Board | Horizontal | Vertical

Provides a stereoscopic picture for 3D games and movies.
Select between modes 1 and 2 for the best 3D effect.
Turns the 3D Effect function off.
Some content may not work with mode1. If you are uncomfortable with Mode1, change the mode to Mode2.
Some contents may not suit with mode2. If you are uncomfortable at Mode2, change your mode to Mode1. 
Provides picture converted 3D to 2D. You can choose this to watch 2D picture temporally when you feel dizzy, but you should choose ?Off? to end 3D Effect completely.
You can select the optimum input format for your graphics card or 3D software. 
If the output format of your graphics card or 3D software is Checkerboard, select this input format.
If the output format of your graphics card or 3D software is Horizontal Interleaved, select this input format. 
If the output format of your graphics card or 3D software is Vertical Interleaved, select this input format. 
Question is, can 3D processing be actually supported in B650 hardware?
I don't think there is a big chance for 100Hz/120Hz input frame rate support in hardware (basically required for time-multiplexing 3D formats). But maybe 3D formats with spatial compression (horizonal/vertical interleave, checkerboard) _can_ be supported: B650 panels are 100/120Hz, and AFAIK spatial-compressed 3D formats are transmited over DVI/HDMI as regular 50Hz/60Hz 2D signal (additional input bandwidth not required).

From what I can see, 3D effect / 3D game options checks are preformed in CMenuPictureSizeValueItem::EnableMenuItemFlag() and CToolPictureSizeItem::AddToolItemFlag(). This is being done according to return value from CAppUtil::Flag3DGameMode(). I think modifying this function to return 1 instead of 0, to enable 3D options in menus, will be quite simple. Not sure I'm brave enough to test it myself :). Any volunteers?
aquadran
Posts: 264
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:35 pm
Location: Poland

Re: 3D effect / 3D game mode options in B650 menus

Post by aquadran »

where you find menu entry info ?

btw hardware hdmi input is capable upto 720p at 120hz and 1080i at 120hz but not progressive. 1080p is only upto 60hz
display panels are 120hz, everething is upscaled into 120hz by FRC
sbav1
Official SamyGO Developer
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:20 am

Re: 3D effect / 3D game mode options in B650 menus

Post by sbav1 »

aquadran wrote:where you find menu entry info ?
Just browsed through unicode strings in exeDSP binary, eg: in (Total Commander Lister) Options -> Unicode, and searched for "3D".
btw hardware hdmi input is capable upto 720p at 120hz and 1080i at 120hz but not progressive.
120Hz would be really nice thing to have, even in 720p. You sure Samsung hardware in B650 series supports that?
I can see 720p/1080i @ 120Hz mentioned in SIL9287 specs, but this is just HDMI switch; I can't find anything relevant in Arsenal chip built-in HDMI receiver description, just this:

Code: Select all

HDMI interface
?HDMI 1.3 compliant receiver.
 Deep color support, up to 36bit-per-pixel
 High Bitrate(HBR) audio modes
?Supports full 36-pin-wide video data path
 24,30, or 36bpp supported in SDR mode (Single Edge clock)
 DDR modes(dual edge clock) also supported for restricted pin interface.
?Digital Low pass filter for anti-aliasing during up & down samping between 4:4:4/4:2:2
?YCbCr for/to RGB color conversion
?WideEyeTM architecture for conditioning and equalization
 Supports cable lengths over 20m
?Supports advanced high bitrate audio mode
 One Bit audio for SACD with sampling rates of 44.1KHz and 88.2KHz 
 High Bit compressed audio via four I2S interfaces
 Superior audio clock regeneration.
?Programmable channel mapping for HDMI, Video Output, and Audio interfaces
?Intergrated HDCP 1.2 decryption engine and pr-programmed keys
?Includes backward compatible support for HDCP 1.1/1.0 and DVI1.0
 
I wonder if anyone actually tried to force some 100Hz/120Hz input signal to TV HDMI ports (some method for EDID-listed modes bypass will be probably required to test this).
display panels are 120hz, everething is upscaled into 120hz by FRC
Hmm, I think LCD panels in B650 series are more likelly to support both 100Hz and 120Hz nativelly (at least in European models). In my opinion, frame rate conversion from 50Hz to 120Hz will likely introduce some noticeable judder artifacts, even with most sophisticated algorithms, and I can't see any artifacts for 60Hz, 50Hz and 24Hz inputs (24*5=120). But it's just a guess, nothing solid to back it up.
aquadran
Posts: 264
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:35 pm
Location: Poland

Re: 3D effect / 3D game mode options in B650 menus

Post by aquadran »

sbav1 wrote:
aquadran wrote:where you find menu entry info ?
Just browsed through unicode strings in exeDSP binary, eg: in (Total Commander Lister) Options -> Unicode, and searched for "3D".
btw hardware hdmi input is capable upto 720p at 120hz and 1080i at 120hz but not progressive.
120Hz would be really nice thing to have, even in 720p. You sure Samsung hardware in B650 series supports that?
I can see 720p/1080i @ 120Hz mentioned in SIL9287 specs, but this is just HDMI switch;
Yes, it's from switch specs. As you pointed Arsenal might not support this, but I guess it can hopefully. There is no info so doesn't mean it can't.
sbav1 wrote: I wonder if anyone actually tried to force some 100Hz/120Hz input signal to TV HDMI ports (some method for EDID-listed modes bypass will be probably required to test this).
EDID mode list propably need to be updated to support higher rates.
Hmm, I think LCD panels in B650 series are more likelly to support both 100Hz and 120Hz nativelly (at least in European models). In my opinion, frame rate conversion from 50Hz to 120Hz will likely introduce some noticeable judder artifacts, even with most sophisticated algorithms, and I can't see any artifacts for 60Hz, 50Hz and 24Hz inputs (24*5=120). But it's just a guess, nothing solid to back it up.
panels are 120hz in specs not 100hz and i guess only support 120hz not below but that is my guess.
FRC is done by dedicated chip (or it's part of Chelsea) for that with own software. on b750 has even own board with two FRC chips with own chip rams.
"noticeable judder artifacts" really ?, in television you have 25 fps conversion from movies 23.9 fps. "motion plus" also use dedicated hardware (also with own software i guess) for that to create (try) smooth motion between frames with 120hz rate. when you play diffrent movies you never have switch frame rate of display it's always the same. I think it should be noticable if display change frame rate.

anyway if this firmware support 3D, would be great to hack it or something.
sbav1
Official SamyGO Developer
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:20 am

Re: 3D effect / 3D game mode options in B650 menus

Post by sbav1 »

aquadran wrote: panels are 120hz in specs not 100hz and i guess only support 120hz not below but that is my guess.
For example, in AUO T370HW02 (this is "60Hz" panel; can't find any detailed info about recent "120Hz" T370HW02 Vx) specs:
http://www.spectrah.com/product/lcd_pan ... ver._1.pdf
there are two separate LVDS timing modes listed, for 50Hz and 60Hz. So it's "50/60Hz" panel. But do Samsung TVs in fact utilize different panel timings (if available)?
"noticeable judder artifacts" really ?, in television you have 25 fps conversion from movies 23.9 fps.
Yeah, but (AFAIK): 24fps -> 25fps conversion is not technically possible without introducing some kind of judder and/or smearing artifacts. I own older Samsung A550 TV, which is presumably utilizing such technique internally to display 24Hz input on 50/60Hz panel, with REALLY, REALLY bad juddering in film mode. I guess thats why in PAL countries 24fps movies are most often transfered for DVD or TV broadcasts by simple speedup (4% ?), to avoid frame rate conversion. And 24fps -> 30/60fps conversions (for NTSC, ie. 2:3 pulldown technique) are not artefact-free either.
I have to confess, I just happen to be very sensitive to judder..
"motion plus" also use dedicated hardware (also with own software i guess) for that to create (try) smooth motion between frames with 120hz rate. when you play diffrent movies you never have switch frame rate of display it's always the same. I think it should be noticable if display change frame rate.
Good point. And another hint is that TV is able to display two inputs with different frame rates concurrently (ie. 60Hz HDMI signal + 50Hz TV input in PIP window).

When switching input frame rates on HDMI port I can see

Code: Select all

SET 50 Hz m_VideoSetting.sScaleData.frameRate = 50000
SET 60 Hz m_VideoSetting.sScaleData.frameRate = 24000
SET 60 Hz m_VideoSetting.sScaleData.frameRate = 60000
SET 60 Hz m_VideoSetting.sScaleData.frameRate = 75000
on serial console. Not sure what it means.

Looks like FRC (indeed, there are two sets of functions for 120Hz, and 240Hz hardware versions) is initialized with various firmware/microcode profiles for different input modes. And panel LVDS clock / frequency settings seem to be controled from FRC microcode; I have not the slightest idea how it works.
aquadran
Posts: 264
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:35 pm
Location: Poland

Re: 3D effect / 3D game mode options in B650 menus

Post by aquadran »

sbav1 wrote: For example, in AUO T370HW02 (this is "60Hz" panel; can't find any detailed info about recent "120Hz" T370HW02 Vx) specs:
http://www.spectrah.com/product/lcd_pan ... ver._1.pdf
there are two separate LVDS timing modes listed, for 50Hz and 60Hz. So it's "50/60Hz" panel. But do Samsung TVs in fact utilize different panel timings (if available)?
you look into old panels, which are not utilised by b650, and some of them are samsung not auo.
LA32B530P7R BN07-00679D LTF320HA09
LA32B530P7R BN07-00658A V315H1-L01
LA37B530P7R BN07-00643A T370HW02 VC
LA40B530P7R BN07-00645A T400HW02 V3
LA46B530P7R BN07-00685B LTF460HA06

LE32B55* BN07-00640A T315HW02 V2
LE37B55* BN07-00643A T370HW02 VC
LE40B55* BN07-00675D LTF400HA08
LE46B55* BN07-00668A V460H1-L06
LE32B65* BN07-00641A T315HW02 V3
LE37B65* BN07-00644A T370HW02 VE
LE40B65* BN07-00646A T400HW02 V5
LE46B65* BN07-00666A V460H1-LH5
LE55B65* BN07-00695A V546H1-L01
LE40B75* BN07-00694B LTF400HG03
LE46B75* BN07-00637A LTF460HG01
LE52B75* BN07-00696A LTF520HH01

UE40B70x0WW BN07-00700B LTF400HF08
UE40B70x0WW BN07-00734A
UE46B70x0WW BN07-00701B LTF460HF08
UE46B70x0WW BN07-00735A
UE55B7000WW BN07-00702B LTF550HF04
UE55B7000WW BN07-00736A
UE40B8000XW BN07-00698A LTF400HG02
UE46B8000XW BN07-00699A LTF460HG02

LN19B360C5D BN07-00610A M185B1-L02
LN22B360C5D BN07-00620A V216B1-L02

LN26B350F1 BN07-00638A T260XW02 VS
LN32B350F1 BN07-00657A V315B5-L01

LN26B360C5D BN07-00638A T260XW02 VS
LN32B360C5D BN07-00657A V315B5-L01
LN32B350F1D BN07-00657A V315B5-L01

LN26B450C4H BN07-00638A T260XW02 VS
LN26B457C6H BN07-00638A T260XW02 VS
LN32B450C4H BN07-00674D LTF320AP06
LN32B457C6H BN07-00674D LTF320AP06
LN37B457C6H BN07-00642A T370XW02 VF
LN40B457C6H BN07-00650A T400XW01 V7

LN26B450C4M BN07-00638A T260XW02 VS
LN32B450C4M BN07-00657A V315B5-L01
LN37B450C4M BN07-00642A T370XW02 VF
LN40B450C4M BN07-00650A T400XW01 V7
LN32B530P2M BN07-00640A T315HW02 V2

LN26B460B2D BN07-00638A T260XW02 VS
LN32B460B2D BN07-00657A V315B5-L01
LN32B540P8D BN07-00657A V315B5-L01

LN40B540P8F BN07-00661A V400H1-L05
LN46B540P8F BN07-00647A T460HW03 V4
LN52B540P8F BN07-00678A LTF520HB05
LN32B550K1F BN07-00640A T315HW02 V2
LN37B550K1F BN07-00643A T370HW02 VC
LN40B550K1F BN07-00675D LTF400HA08
LN46B550K1F BN07-00685B LTF460HA06
LN52B550K1F BN07-00678A LTF520HB05

LN32B550K1M BN07-00640A T315HW02 V2
LN40B550K1M BN07-00661A V400H1-L05
LN46B550K1M BN07-00647A T460HW03 V4
LN52B550K1M BN07-00678A LTF520HB05
LN22B650T6 BN07-00620A V216B1-L01
LN40B650T1M BN07-00646A T400HW02 V5
LN46B650T1M BN07-00671A LTF460HF03
LN55B650T1M BN07-00695A V546H1-L01
LN52B750U1M BN07-00696A LTF520HH01

LN40B610A5F BN07-00691B LTF400HF10
LN46B610A5F BN07-00705B LTF460HF06
LN52B610A5F BN07-00706B LTF520HE09
LN32B640R3F BN07-00641A T315HW02 V3

LN32B650T1F BN07-00641A T315HW02 V3
LN37B650T1F BN07-00644A T370HW02 VE
LN40B640R3F BN07-00677D LTF400HF11
LN46B640R3F BN07-00671B LTF460HF07
LN55B640R3F BN07-00695A V546H1-L01
LN40B630N1F BN07-00691B LTF400HF10
LN46B630N1F BN07-00705B LTF460HF06
LN52B630N1F BN07-00706B LTF520HE09

LN40B650T1F BN07-00677A LTF400HF03
LN46B650T1F BN07-00671A LTF460HF03
LN55B650T1F BN07-00695A V546H1-L01

LN40B750U1F BN07-00694B LTF400HG03
LN46B750U1F BN07-00637A LTF460HG01
LN52B750U1F BN07-00696A LTF520HH01
sbav1 wrote: Yeah, but (AFAIK): 24fps -> 25fps conversion is not technically possible without introducing some kind of judder and/or smearing artifacts. I own older Samsung A550 TV, which is presumably utilizing such technique internally to display 24Hz input on 50/60Hz panel, with REALLY, REALLY bad juddering in film mode. I guess thats why in PAL countries 24fps movies are most often transfered for DVD or TV broadcasts by simple speedup (4% ?), to avoid frame rate conversion. And 24fps -> 30/60fps conversions (for NTSC, ie. 2:3 pulldown technique) are not artefact-free either.
I have to confess, I just happen to be very sensitive to judder..
if it is indeed speedup, why bother use so complicated thing like FRC ?
sbav1
Official SamyGO Developer
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:20 am

Re: 3D effect / 3D game mode options in B650 menus

Post by sbav1 »

aquadran wrote: you look into old panels, which are not utilised by b650, and some of them are samsung not auo.
Yep, you are right about that. I googled for some B650 panels (T315HW02 V3, T370HW02 VE, T400HW02 V5), and multiple timing modes are not listed in manufacturer's specs.
nbd
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:02 pm

Re: 3D effect / 3D game mode options in B650 menus

Post by nbd »

Hello, I'm soon going to have Gefen HDMI detective, and with that I could be able to send 3D material through HDMI to my UE40B7070, but first I'd need a 3D Blu-ray player - could buy one and then return it before 30 days for full refund - and also I'd need to program the HDMI detective in some 3D samsung - also doable in some electronic store.

I think this method was already deployed successfully with some Samsung plasma, I read from AVSForum.

My exeDSP dissassembly has the following functions that might interest:

_ZN10SsInfoBase17Check3DResolutionE14TDResolution_k
_ZN10SsInfoBase17Set3DGameModeFlagEN9TPCSource11EGameMode3DE
_ZN13SsPictureBase15t_Set3DGameModeEN9TPCSource11EGameMode3DE
_ZTv0_n104_N8TDaPanel11Set3DEffectEN8TDiPanel24TDPanel3DEffectControl_kEi
_ZN8TDiPanel11Set3DEffectENS_24TDPanel3DEffectControl_kEi
spIAvd_Set3DCombMemMasterEnable
lldAvd_Set3DCombEnable
uldAvd_Set3DCombMemMasterEnable
_ZN8CAppUtil14Flag3DGameModeEv

These are probably irrelevant:

_ZNK28CMenu3DEffectFormatValueItem16GetSublistTextIdEi
_ZNK28CMenu3DEffectFormatValueItem15GetSublistCountEv
_ZNK28CMenu3DEffectFormatValueItem15GetMenuItemDataEv
_ZNK28CMenu3DEffectFormatValueItem15SetMenuItemDataEi
_ZNK22CMenu3DEffectValueItem15AddMenuItemFlagEv
_ZN26CMenu3DEffectModeValueItem15SetSublistItemsEv
_ZN22CMenu3DEffectValueItemD0Ev
_ZN22CMenu3DEffectValueItemD1Ev
_ZN26CMenu3DEffectModeValueItemD0Ev
_ZN28CMenu3DEffectFormatValueItemD1Ev
smartsmurf
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Posts: 111
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Location: Frankfurt, Germany

Re: 3D effect / 3D game mode options in B650 menus

Post by smartsmurf »

Beside the technical challenge of displaying the 3D content on screen - how would you connect shutter lenses?

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